Let's Get Some Conference Expansion News Up in Here
by CrimsonUte on Sep 7, 2011 9:39 AM MDT
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PrintLast night the SEC voted unanimously to admit Texas A&M as the thirteenth team in their conference, on one condition: The Big 12 and all its individual schools must waive any legal rights to sue. This morning Florida president Bernie Machen, SEC board head (and former U of U president) indicated that the understanding everyone had was that the entire Big 12 had greenlighted Texas A&M leaving:
After receiving unanimous written assurance from the Big 12 on September 2 that the Southeastern Conference was free to accept Texas A&M to join as a new member, the presidents and chancellors of the SEC met last night with the intention of accepting the application of Texas A&M to be the newest member of the SEC.
Well, it seems that at least one Big 12 team (*cough, Baylor, cough, cough*) is strongly considering lawsuits against Texas A&M, the SEC, A&M president Mike Slive and Slive's children's children's children.
That doesn't jive with an earlier letter to the SEC from Dan Beebe, commissioner of the Big 12, dated September 2:
The Big 12 and its members will not take any legal action for any possible claims against the SEC or its members relating to the departure of Texas A&M University from the Big 12 and the admission of Texas A&M into the SEC; provided, however, that such act by the SEC to admit Texas A&M is publicly confirmed by 5:00 p.m. (CDT) on September 8, 2011
Read all about it here and here.
In other news, John Wilner from Mercury news is saying that Texas has little or no desire to actually move to the Pac-12, and ESPN wants to keep the Big 12 together too. He says Texas' preferences, in order, would be:
- Make fiscal and Longhorn Network concessions to Oklahoma to keep the Big 12 together.
- If A&M and possibly Missouri go to the SEC, and the Oklahoma schools go to the Pac-12, then make a new Big 12 out of the remaining schools and some new ones (Wilner guesses Houston, SMU, Pittsburg and Louisville might be targets).
- If that doesn't work, football independence, with Olympic sports possibly playing in the ACC.
- Pac-12/16.
Wilner lists multiple reasons why Texas does not want to join the Pac-12. It's a very interesting read, available here.
Look for more maneuvering by ESPN, just like last year, to avoid super conferences. The larger the conferences are, the higher the risk of ESPN winning the media rights. If they were to lose out entirely on a Pac-16 deal, that's roughly one fourth of the high-value college sports content of the nation that goes to a competitor.
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If you add the OK schools
you pretty much force the conference to go to zipper divisions. Not many are high on that (although I like it, a lot).
I hate the idea of Texas, simply because they have an inflated view of themselves, their prestige, and how much they mean. Think BYU on steroids. Let them do their own thing and watch people continue to tire of them and leave them. They will fall on their face.
To me, I say just stay put. If you really want to go to 16, I would be up for that, provided that it was Ok, Ok State, and (surprisingly) the Kansas schools. I dont want anything to do with Texas.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 7, 2011 10:10 AM MDT reply actions
The zipper is the only solution that makes every happy and angry
In fact, if the conference does end up with 16 teams, the only way CU doesn’t raise a stink about being cut off from the West Coast again is if the zipper divisions are formed (assuming the NCAA doesn’t approve of the “pod” divisions).
In fact, splitting the conference between the flagships (minus Utah) and the “State” + privates + Utah probably is more equitable in terms of historically competitive schools in different divisions, given OU and USC would be in different divisions. The tradeoff is the same problem that the NBA’s and NHL’s Western Conferences run into: massive amounts of traveling, but everyone visits every region in football at least once every two years.
The zipper will never be implemented.
First, it was considered and roundly rejected in the past. There is nothing to indicate that the existing members (aside, perhaps, Colorado) will want it now.
But more importantly, there is simply a numbers & tradition game working against it.
Specifically, the California schools have been playing each other for close to 400 years, and go back to being conference mates way before the PCC was even formed. The only way the expansion to 12 was managed was by having the Californias play each other every year. They will keep that even if the conference expands to 16 schools.
Now, if there is expansion, there are two potential divisional alignments:
N/S, where you and Colo join the current north, while the remaining Big12 refugees join the south, or a Pac-8 / Big12 thing.
In either case, the way the schedule works is this: 3 OOC games, 7 divisional games, 2 inter-divisional games. If the N/S alignment is done, the California schools will want to play each other every year, meaning Cal, Furd, SC, and Ucla have locked up those 2 inter-div games. Meaning further, no other North school can play in LA, and Cal & Furd can never play other south schools.
By doing the Pac-8 / Big12 alignment, California is opened up to everyone in the Big12 – at least occasionally.
The only alternative would be to have the California teams only play one of their other-division rivals each year, but that would only be a small improvement.
Sadly (for you), it is Pac-8 / Big12 or nothing. For us, going back to the pac-8 would be an ideal situation. Almost too perfect.
"Thanks. Go Bears!" - Ernest Owusu: the next great Cal DE
I personally wouldn't want the old Pac-8
Looking at this from a conference-wide perspective, you end up with very unhappy conference mates (Colorado, the Arizonas, maybe Utah) to accommodate another (the Pac-8, the Oklahomas, the Texans). The Big 12 and the SWC taught us that unhappy conference mates can lead to very bad things, and alienating two former Pac-10 schools and two new schools who were content with the current situation is not the way to start up a new conference.
I’d rather just play UCLA every other year, have the opportunity to visit (and for all coaches, recruit) all the regions of the conference at least once every two years, and get an extra $7-15M per year with expansion than stay stuck on the West Coast and see only one of the new locales every year. What’s to stop Oklahoma or Texas from forming their own conference down the road if they only interact with the California schools occasionally, seeing as how the power in the conference lies with the California schools (as Wilner put it)? If sacrificing 100 years of playing UCLA (or for Cal, USC) consecutively to only every other year means prolonged conference stability, I’d do it.
dont get me wrong
i would love to have the program play more often in texas. That will obviously help with recruiting.
but is it worth it to put up with a prima donna like Texas?
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 7, 2011 10:22 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Of course, Texas' reluctance to join the Pac-12 could all be positioning
They may just be trying to angle for the best possible deal in going to the Pac-12.
Found this interesting take on why Texas would be stalling and dragging this out.
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
And here's another option for the poll:
Pac-16: Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas & Missouri.
Not super-exciting from a football standpoint, but some decent basketball. And Kansas & Missouri are both AAU schools with good academic profiles.
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
Like I said below
I’d rather the Texas television market than the kansas and missouri one… plus you start running into regional identity issues.
by Joseph Silverzweig on Sep 7, 2011 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions
I like 12
But I think 16 is where this thing is going, whether we like it or not. Given that, it makes sense for the Pac-16 to have the biggest markets which make regional sense. That’s Texas. If it’s going to happen anyway, it should happen with the best teams we can get.
Longhorn TV was an interesting try at a business model, but it doesn’t look like it is viable in the unstable world of the NCAA. I think Texas bigwigs will be willing to give up on that in exchange for 1/16th of the very, very big pie we will be bringing in.
Texas wants its own conference (currently called the Big 12, but I’m sure they would love “Texas Conference”) with 16 teams to compete with 16 team west, south east, north east, and middle american conferences. I don’t think they can get it, though.
by Joseph Silverzweig on Sep 7, 2011 11:06 AM MDT reply actions
I hope the conference doesn't expand
Assuming we expand to 16 and include Ok’s and Tx’s we would never win the Pac-East division. Ok, maybe once in 20-30 years we might come close or even win out. There are a lot of interesting blogs/articles out there highlighting the negatives of the super conferences. I’ll admit, there are some very compelling arguments out there. I’m sure the old Pac-8 likes the idea of going back to the original 8 teams, but Utah and especially Colorado end up the biggest losers if we go to 16 teams.
The bigger question I’d like to pose to the group is this… Would Utah be better off in the Pac-16 East with Ok’s and Tx’s, or in an AQ Mtn. West Conference w/Boise, Nevada, and Fresno (assuming TCU and BYU stay as well)?
before any of you freak out, think about this...
from a cash standpoint, obviously we make more in the Pac-East than in the Mtn West (Mtn would be more as an AQ). But from a competitive standpoint, in order to play in a BCS bowl we would have to win out in a conference with both Texas schools, both Oklahoma schools, SC, Oregon, and Stanford. I don’t like it at all personally.
Money doesn't always talk
At some point I’ve got to think it starts losing it’s influence. If you’re already swimming in it, does a little more mean that much? I’m sure some people will always go for the moolah, but I think many people will dismiss the extra cash so long as they can retain other things.
Really, what would Texas get out of a PAC-16? More money and that’s about it. They’d have to share Texas recruiting more ( maybe not a lot, but still. ) They may have to give up the Longhorn network. And they’d most definitely give up being the sole big fish. Will California recruiting really open up to them? Does that even matter if they already have their pick of Texas recruits?
I don’t think Texas is willing to give up conference dominance and that would definitely happen in a PAC-16, regardless of money. I think they’ll just gather a few good non-AQ schools to maintain the Big 12.
If anyone found my snowboarding gloves after storming the field following the 2004 TDS game, I want them back!
I hope Ken Starr does an excellent job of prosecuting TamU...
…because as SanFran pointed out, we’d go from a division with just 1 super-power (USC) to 2 (Texas, Oklahoma).
Think of Texas Tech Circa 2008…managed to beat a great Texas team, and STILL had a top 5 Oklahoma team on the schedule, which they subsequently lost to.
…and on top of that…if you actually manage to beat both, then you’ve still got to win the Pac-16 championship game?!?
I think we’re a good program and have made great strides…but we’re just not ready for that.
-
Not to mention I’d much rather travel to California for a road game than Norman, Stillwater OK, or Lubbock…awful locations. Please don’t let this happen football Gods!
NO ONE is ready for that
For the sake of argument, let’s say USC gets back to their PC age success and that Utah stays pretty good too. I don’t care WHO you are. Running through USC, Utah, Texas, OK, and the Arizona schools unscathed will not happen. The end results are division and/or conf champs with 2-3 losses. That just doesn’t look impressive.
If anyone found my snowboarding gloves after storming the field following the 2004 TDS game, I want them back!
Superconferences will fall apart.
The 16 Team WAC did not fall apart because they weren’t power house teams. They fell apart because the conference was too big, and to spread out to exist.
It won’t change just because the teams are different.
That's my fear...
The Super 16 will work for a few years together and then someone will bitch and moan about this or that and it’ll all fall apart.
But do things just go back to what they were prior to super conferences or what?
I could see the original Pac-8 teams realizing this is their shot to go back to the historical borders of their conference. If you follow Pac-12 politics, you’d easily see that, even after all these years, there are still mega-traditionalists who still haven’t accepted the Arizona schools.
If that’s the case, Utah won’t be in their picture. Do we end up in the new Big 12 then? I don’t want that.
That's a legit fear.
Utah could end up being the Rice of this situation. Going from a great position to a terrible one. Really all we can do, is play well and prove we have value between now and the time the Super 16’s fall apart.
Yup...
Just gotta win and hope it’s enough. The biggest thing going for Utah is that we won’t have a traditional rival to come to bat for us if things start getting divided up. Washington State and Oregon State can lean on their bigger rivals who carry much more weight than other programs.
We don’t have that. But if we’re winning lots of games and bringing good attention to the conference, we’ll be in a good spot I think. If we flop, then we’re probably back to the MWC, demoted and the laughing stock of the college football world.
Ah, that confused me ;)
If anyone found my snowboarding gloves after storming the field following the 2004 TDS game, I want them back!
The 16 team version of the WAC feel apart because it wasn't enough money for the travel to make sense.
“Can a 16-team league work? It can work if all 16 schools want it to work,….The failure of the WAC was that there wasn’t enough money to keep some of the schools from feeling that there wasn’t equity in the league — enough to keep BYU and Utah happy. It imploded from within.”
The quote is from Karl Bensen who was in charge of the WAC even back then. Enough money fixes almost all of the problems the WAC experienced.
Guys at Burnt Orange Nation are making fun of Wilner
Specifically his assertion that the state of Texas has a fascination with east coast academia and Washington DC. BurntOrange
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
Wilner was kinda right
As a transplanted Texan in California, Texans tend to have more of a fascination with the East Coast academia than the West Coast as a generality. However, within the past 10, 15 years or so, Texas, or more specifically, Austin, has changed considerably. There are a whole lot of Californians who moved to Texas in that time frame who brought with them what they know about the West Coast. And with them has come more of an appreciation for West Coast academics and athletics than in the past. While they aspire to be “like” the Ivies, they’ve come to identify themselves more with Cal, UCLA, and Stanford.
It’s debatable as to whether or not they are comparable to those schools, but that’s how they now identify themselves.
Wilner is a moron
The guy is the epitome of what’s wrong with the poll system, and for the most part is a terrible journalist.
The only value he has, is he was on top of the Pac-12 TV Negotiations. Everything else though he seems to be wrong more often than right.
I'm not even sure that he was on top of the TV negotiations.
He had some info, but it seemed counterbalanced by being wrong a lot.
Everyone hates a pink-shirt-wearing communist.
by displacedute on Sep 7, 2011 10:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Plus he does a lot of complete guessing and garbage that would get him laughed off a message board.
He’s terrible.
Everyone hates a pink-shirt-wearing communist.
by displacedute on Sep 7, 2011 10:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Apparently Iowa State has not waived their rights to sue
According to USA Today
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
Arkansas was recently approached by the Big-12
According to ESPN. Surprisingly, they said no. ;)
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
Could the Pac-12 possibly lure Notre Dame?
I know that’s a crazy thing to say, but let’s say Oklahoma and Oklahoma State want to come to the Pac-12, and Texas insists on rebuilding the Big 12 or going independent. Super conferences seem to be on the way, and Notre Dame finally feels compelled to join a conference. But why does it have to be the B1G?
Notre Dame already plays USC and Stanford on a regular basis. They’re a national football team that could really play anywhere. Is there a chance that Larry Scott could lure them west, and pair them with another Midwest team to get to the magic 16 number?
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
Personally, I think that 12 team conferences are the limit...
and that’s pushing it. Larger conferences are less fun. That’s been proven before, but everyone is convinced it’s the way of the future, so who am I to disagree. All I know is that I foresee massive dilution of what once made these conferences traditionally great. If the Pac really wants to go 16 I’d prefer to just start a whole new conference with CU, OU, Okie State, and etc. I mean, let’s face it, a “Pac 16 East” will essentially just end up being a conference unto itself anyway.
Also, I do not want to be in a conference with Texas. People are blaming A&M, and even Nebraska and CU, for bringing about the fall of the Big 12, but they’re forgetting that those teams wanted to get the hell out for a reason; and that reason is Texas. They’ll end up killing the Pac as well. Texas needs to get on with it and become independent already.
by -FeloniousMonk on Sep 7, 2011 5:03 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Now everyone in the Big 12 except Oklahoma is retaining their right to sue A&M and the SEC
But they say they will sign a waivers for the Texas A&M move if Oklahoma commits to stay in the Big 12. (Says ESPN.) They also say that if the Big 12 stays together, with the exception of Texas A&M, then BYU will be invited as a 10th member of the conference.
Zoobs better say their prayers tonight.
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
I think Utes better say 'em as well...
I don’t think a Pac 16 would be good for/to the U.
by -FeloniousMonk on Sep 7, 2011 9:35 PM MDT up reply actions
I prefer the current Pac-12
But if everyone’s going to go super conference (and that’s debatable), I’m hoping the Pac-12 lands some solid additions.
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
Now everyone is denying that there is some ultimatum for Oklahoma to stay
Ha ha. This stuff is hilarious. OK News says there is no collusion.
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
this stuff is too funny.
personally, I hope BYU gets invited to the Big 12. Because that conference is either going to implode. I don’t think Texas A&M is the last leaf to fall. Missouri practically begged the Big-10 to invite them last year. Missou is gone once they get the chance. That leaves 8, 9 with BYU.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
Baylor is confident they will get an invite to the Big East if the Big 12 implodes
According to Rivals.
Dolphins and sharks are natural enemies. Dolphins are like, "Quit eating us," and sharks are like, "Stop smiling all the time, you morons."
Sort-of-daily sort-of-funny sort-of-thoughts at danoftheday.com
makes sense
i think the big east sees the writing on the wall and knows that they are likely to get raided in the event that a couple more dominoes fall. Also, it provides a natural travel partner for TCU in sports not named football.
Is the Big East trying to become the first conference with 50+ basketball teams?
Personally, I would rather see Baylor come to the Pac-16 should expansion happen over Texas Tech. Waco is much closer to the recruiting hotbeds (Houston and DFW) then Texas tech. Additionally, having spent eight years in Texas, I can tell you that the vast majority of Texans consider Lubbock/Amarillo to be another state.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 8, 2011 9:31 AM MDT up reply actions
can you imagine if Baylor just announced today that they are going to the Big East?
talk about egg on your face!
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 8, 2011 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions
A couple things learned from the previous expansion talks that yielded the Pac 12.
1. No school with religious beliefs will be part of the Pac 8/10/12/16. This includes BYU, Baylor, Oral Roberts, etc. Many of the existing, old members of the Pac 8 will be 100% againest it. Besides BYU never plays on Sunday. End of issue. Notre Dame has a large enough following around the country to be 100% independent.
2. Texas is showing that it is bad guy in the Big 12. Nebraska left because it could not get the conference championship moved out of Texas – King Jerry’s $ billion stadium. And the conference money is not doled out evenly. At least alternate between a Northern member / facility every other year. The LHN was created to be the cash cow for Texas -only. Only Oklahoma – Oklahoma State could start their own network. But, the rest, Iowa State, Kansas, K-State, Baylor, TTech, can’t. A&M always wanted to join the SEC, because former coach Gene Stallings was head coach at A&M and Alabama.
3. Colorado was a bad fit academically and culturally with the Big 12. They were also unhappy with the uneven money distribution.
4. The Pac 8/10/12 always prides itself on the overall academic, sports – especially the olympic sports, and the Director’s Cup for overall sports excellence. Out of the Big 12 schools only Texas has the academics and other sports. But, Texas is the bully in this case. They’re better off going independent. They can keep all the $$ for themselves.
5. I also dont think the Cal community has forgot the crying and pleading Mack Brown made with the AP and coaches poll a few years ago that enabled Texas to jump over Cal in the last poll that pushed Cal out of the Rose Bowl.
6. If anything happens, I think the prospective members could include OU, OSU, and TTech. As for the last one to make it Pac 16 only Larry Scott knows. It could also stay at 12.
Cougars
Can you imagine how pissed off BYU would be if Texas became ESPN’s new independent lap dog and they didn’t get the invite to the Big-12?
No idea why BYU fans think that ESPN contract is such a big deal...
ESPN is in bed with more teams than Madonna…it’s not some show of respect.
…and if you watched last week’s game…you’ll notice ESPN highlighted that it was an SEC game…not a BYU game. BYU is there to fill a 3rd tier viewing void without requiring ESPN to haul HD equipment to the home games…nothing more.
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